Most People Problems Are Leadership Problems – Sel Watts on Building Teams That Work

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Convergence Podcast. I'm your host, Ashok Sivanand. So when I go into organizations and I do like an audit, for want of a better word, I want to know whether roles are clearly defined. At any given time, do I know what success looks like? On this show, we'll deconstruct the best practices, principles, and the underlying philosophies behind the most engaged product teams who ship the most successful products.

[00:00:36] This is what teams are made of. Hey folks, welcome back to Convergence.fm. We're joined today by Sel Watts, a founder and a people strategist who spent almost two decades helping high-growth companies build teams that actually work. Not HR theater, not performative perks, real systems that drive alignment, accountability, and high performance.

[00:01:02] Sel started her company, What's Next Group, in Australia 18 years ago, before fractional HR was really a thing. Now, she didn't come into this space as an HR lifer. She came in as a frustrated practitioner who saw firsthand how unclear roles, inconsistent leadership, and overcomplicated systems were killing company performance from the inside out.

[00:01:26] Since then, she's helped hundreds of founders and executives create high-functioning teams by focusing on the fundamentals. Self-awareness, clearly defined outcomes, behavioral alignment, and a culture you can actually live, not just right on the wall. On the episode, we unpack how most people problems are actually leadership problems.

[00:01:48] How to tell when your org structure is quietly sabotaging your hiring efforts, and why consistency beats charisma when it comes to building long-term trust on your team. We also talk about the difference between a job description and what she defines as an outcome profile. How many all-hands or town hall meetings fall flat, the same with one-on-ones.

[00:02:12] And how to design systems that reinforce, not dilute, your values and your company vision. If you are looking for ideas and more ways to engage and align your team, this episode is definitely for you. Here's our conversation with Sel Watts.

[00:02:40] Welcome to the show, Sel. I've been really looking forward to having this chat. And as leaders, I think we, especially the ambitious ones amongst us, there's a lot that we want to get done. And sometimes we get caught up in things that are really sophisticated or complicated. And then we do that while forgetting the fundamentals.

[00:03:09] And I know that I have done that. I've done that, you know, before we could have an HR person or a head of people at Integral. And so from that kind of lens around engaging and finding the best talent, what are some of those fundamentals that you think like ambitious leaders, whether they're founders or executives, tend to kind of forget based on what you've seen and had to go in and retrofit? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:38] Look, I think the, you know, HR space or HR department can be very overworked and overdone. And there can be a lot of activity happening, but a complete miss with what are we actually trying to achieve. So I really think when thinking about people, it's the little things that matter. It's not really robust, complicated stuff. It's like, okay, ultimately, what do people want?

[00:04:07] People want to do work that they enjoy, that they're good at, have the resources to do that. And so how do we get people to perform and engage? We give them an opportunity to do work that they are good at and enjoy and allow them to do that. So then what does that mean in real life? Like, what do we have to be doing?

[00:04:33] The first thing that I think any CEO or leader needs to do is first understand themselves. So, you know, I talk to CEOs all day long and about their people. And it's always first about my person, my employee here is doing this, my manager is doing that, my person is not doing that.

[00:05:00] And I always go, let's just stop for a second and let's talk about you. Because if we're, we, as entrepreneurs especially, you know, we're interesting people. And many of us aren't awesome at managing and leading others. And we can sort of not think about that side.

[00:05:24] So I think the fundamental before we do anything is that the manager or the leader needs to understand who they are and how they behave and how that will potentially impact the results that they want to get. Because more often than not, I see that the reason that people don't perform is not necessarily because of that person, but it's because simple things like they don't know what success looks like.

[00:05:54] So there hasn't been clarity around what are the outcomes of their role? What does success actually look like if they're doing a good job? How do they need to be communicated with? Like how do they listen and learn? So understanding people's profiles and being able to adapt to get the outcomes you want from people by being able to talk to them in their language.

[00:06:22] Listening to your people, you know, what actually matters to them and recognising that we are in such a fast moving world now that, you know, if you did a survey 18 months ago and you think that that feedback still applies, I can assure you it most likely doesn't. You know, we are all changing individually, significant, like, you know, really quickly. So what our people want and what matters to them changes all the time.

[00:06:51] And we need to be listening to that and adapting to that if we want to be getting the most out of people. So it's these, you know, you think about it from the point of view is like we're humans. Like what do we want? What do we need? And rather than, you know, I'm just anti-overcomplicating a space where humans are complicated enough as it is. We are unpredictable enough as it is. It's never going to be a science.

[00:07:18] So let's just get down to the, as you say, like the fundamentals or the foundation. I love it. So there's a few things that I heard there. I think it starts with the leader and self-awareness. I want to get into that. And then in terms of organizing the teams, I heard a couple of things. One is setting up the criteria where it's the right person for the role based on their skills and what they are, what they are passionate about or what they enjoy.

[00:07:43] And then setting them up with things like the success criteria, the right resources and tools and creating a feedback loop. So I want to sort of slice that up just a little bit and start from the beginning, right? I've gone through various phases of confidence in my self-awareness starting from I know everything about myself to all the way down to there's so much more to learn. And then, you know, the good days are somewhere in between those two extremes.

[00:08:10] And so in terms of whether or not self-awareness can be taught or not, or if you have an approach to help these leaders with maybe uncovering things that they may not have realized that are leading to these frustrations that they have with what they thought was their team, but turns out maybe a combination of themselves and the team. What are some things that leaders can do that help them learn a little bit more about themselves that's really relevant to engaging their teams?

[00:08:40] Yeah. So I'm a professional personal development junkie. So I have always had coaches and mentors and read books and done all a lot of the self-development, even more so than the professional development.

[00:08:58] Um, because I believe that my success will ultimately come down to my mindset, my performance, my ego, you know, my emotions, all of those things. So the first thing is that the leader has to want to know about themselves. They, they actually want, they have to be courageous enough to hold up a mirror and go, okay, what's good? What's bad?

[00:09:28] What's sabotaging myself? What are my, what are my employees seeing? What are they experiencing? Where do I need help? Um, that, that's can be really hard if you, um, haven't really done that before. If you've been, had a career journey where you've had to constantly show, um, that, you know, everything and you're, you've got it all. Whereas like entrepreneurs are known for our vulnerability and our ability to sort of go, oh gosh, I really messed up.

[00:09:57] Um, so, you know, that, that is important because, um, you know, that whole, like it, it starts from the top. I don't believe that, that culture and those things, I think it's a, everyone's responsible for culture.

[00:10:13] But ultimately, if you are a leader who can't look at yourself, can't be self-accountable, um, can't take on feedback, um, doesn't want to personally develop, then how, why would anyone that works for you do that? So if you think about what do you want your people to be like then, um, and how are you living that?

[00:10:35] So, um, you know, I think that you've got to want to, you've got to want to do that. And, and I think I've mentioned to you in one of our previous conversations that I do some, some one-on-one coaching with, uh, entrepreneurs and CEOs. And, um, you know, I'll get asked whether I will coach, you know, one of their executive members or one of their team members and, um, you know, they'll pay for it.

[00:11:04] And I will not coach anyone unless they are at least paying 50% of that invoice because you've got to be, you've got to want it yourself. There's, there is no point me coaching someone who's doing it for their boss or cause their boss said that they should do it. It's, it's gotta be self-driven and you've got to want, want that yourself.

[00:11:28] And so, uh, I think that's really important to, to, you know, you can, you can read all the books and go to all the courses, but if you don't really want to be awesome, you don't really want to look at yourself in the mirror and see how you can improve, then, um, you know, that's going to be hard to grow. So I think it's maybe easier said than done.

[00:11:47] It took for myself on the beginning of this journey of self-awareness, like a lot of luck and maybe, you know, having to face some problems that, uh, founders face where we have no one else in the room to look to and looking inwards the only way. Um, not all of us are necessarily in those positions. I'm curious if there are particular individuals that you can think of that went through this journey with you. Yeah. Yes. Uh, many. And, um, with differing results.

[00:12:16] So I've, I, you know, one CEO in particular, you know, a really strong, strong business and, and, and interestingly, very loyal staff in that they had stayed with the company for, you know, five, 10 years, but he was awful. And everyone, nobody liked him. And it was really interesting to me to see like, how do they, why do they stay?

[00:12:43] Um, when he's really awful to deal with on a day to day basis. And so I was sort of working through with him on how to, um, you know, improve the engagement and the performance of his people. And the problem was, um, he didn't care about his people. Like he didn't, he didn't care about them.

[00:13:09] Um, and as we started working, um, um, he wanted me to put in place all the structures and all the systems, um, that is going to create a really good, you know, people experience and HR framework. Um, which, you know, that's what we do. Um, but he didn't want to be a part of that. Um, he didn't care.

[00:13:36] And, and it was, we had some really interesting conversations, uh, about the fact that, you know, he, he had a lot of issues that were getting in the way. But what I thought was so interesting is that people still stayed. Um, and so why, why is that, you know, why is that working when I've got other clients that are, give their stuff everything and they can't seem to keep people? Like what is going on there?

[00:14:03] And one of the things that was really interesting was one, what you see is what you get. So they knew exactly what they were getting every single day. Um, and, and so one of the conversations that I had with him was, I'm not, I can't change you. Like I can't make you care about people or make you think that you're not wrong or whatever it is. So let's just get real on, on who you are and what it is.

[00:14:31] And then therefore what this business is going to be like. And when I interviewed the staff, uh, the ones that have been there the longest had gone, were, I know what to expect every day. And so that was a really interesting process because we didn't get him to change or improve for it actually. Um, but what we did do is get him to be real about who he is in the culture he was creating.

[00:14:59] And I think this is very, very important. When I ask people about their, um, what's your culture? People need to be really honest about what, what is the culture? So for example, my company is a high performing culture. It is, it is a company where don't come here if you want like a nine to five, easy sort of do your job and leave. Like, it's just not that type of business. It's not, it's, we don't have those types of clients.

[00:15:28] And, and so it might not be a great sales pitch when I'm explaining what we're like, but for the right person, it's like, whoa, how soon can I start? So I think this is really important about this guy that I'm talking about going, this is how I am. Don't tell me that you want me to implement systems that are going to show you care because you don't care.

[00:15:52] So let's be authentic here and create, um, you know, an experience that's authentic to you that you can actually live and breathe. So that was one extreme example where he, you know, there was so many issues, but there's no point. I wasn't going to be able to change him. I then have the other side where people are thirsty.

[00:16:14] Um, one in particular, uh, so thirsty to grow and, um, develop their skills and, and be better. Um, but also then as a result of that, not recognizing that what they're awesome at and where the boundaries need to be and that they are not.

[00:16:36] Uh, I remember this, this conversation about, um, um, being wanting to be liked by the employee, like by their team members. And I think that can be, that can be a real challenge for some, for some leaders is that they, you know, they want to be liked and they think I need my people to be happy. And also I'm, I'm scared to lose people right now. If we lose someone, we might lose the client.

[00:17:01] So all of this sort of behavior and how do you get that balance between keeping people accountable, um, having the, this is the way we do things without, um, you know, the fear of losing people. So this is like an interesting balance, but again, this, and this is where I'm anti cookie cutter. Um, you know, we can, we can learn from our entrepreneurial friends and we can look at competitive businesses or whatever.

[00:17:30] But at the end of the day, we need to create an employee experience and the way that we do things with our people that is very customized to who you are as a leader and what industry you're in and the type of people that are attracted to your company. Um, so that you can design that because it is, it's different and it's gotta be authentic. Uh, it's gotta be real.

[00:17:53] And, um, I think that we tend to, there are certain things that we can look over at our friends business and go, I'm going to implement that exact system. Um, but I think with a lot of leadership things that that's not the case, we have to understand ourselves first and what we're going to be able to live and breathe.

[00:18:11] Um, so, so with the, with the coaching of people, um, it's interesting because there's, there's a sort of, okay, let's just cut the crap of what you saying that you want and what you think you are. And let's just get real about what is the reality and like, how do we now maximize that and make it absolutely awesome. Um, and then it works. So a couple of things that I think resonate one is authenticity. Um, sure.

[00:18:40] This person didn't care about the person or there were aspects that, you know, maybe you're not coaching anyone to word. Um, but one aspect is they, they were who they were and they weren't pretending to be anybody else. And that was appreciated. Um, and the second one is consistency where, and then they're very closely related, I think, where, um, if, if you're authentic, chances are you're going to show up the same way.

[00:19:04] And then the person on the other side kind of knows what to expect and, um, what to kind of, what their work is cut out within that consistent thing versus some, something that feels more like a game of whack-a-mole where. Sure. Sure. The person's got a growth mindset, but things are changing so, so quickly, um, without the right context in place that, um, for me to plan my workout and how I'm going to get my outcomes, um, I have to consistently be changing.

[00:19:33] So, uh, that's an interesting silver, maybe not a silver lining, but, um, understanding the roots of what's important within something that seemed like it was less than ideal. Yeah. Uh, and I think that consistency, little, the little things and consistency, if you can think about those two things as a leader. So I'll give you an example.

[00:19:55] Um, I was talking to a client the other day and they were talking about their all hands meetings and saying that they just haven't been consistent. And they say they want to do these all hands meetings. They know that they're, they should, they know they should, um, they know the reason why they're important. And what they are and, um, and they do them, but then they don't do them consistently.

[00:20:21] And, you know, and so we had this conversation about the fact that they're not, they are not understanding the, the, um, benefit of them doing, like the benefit of them doing it for them. So you go, okay, we've got to have all hands meetings because that's what everyone does. Or we've got to do one-to-ones. I'm a big believer in one-to-ones. Got to do one-to-ones because that's what I read in a book.

[00:20:47] And then because you don't understand the value of it or what you're getting as a result of doing it, you then move the meeting or you hate doing it. And then you put it off and, and then you create a culture and environment where we don't do what we say we're going to do. Meetings get moved. You know, I don't know whether my, whether I'm going to have my meeting today with my boss, because he often just moves at the last minute. And that, that creates a culture.

[00:21:18] And so with people doing the little things and doing them consistently and knowing why you're doing them is, it's like the secret sauce. And it sounds so basic. It's like, it's like, you know, when we implement one-to-ones in, in our clients and I'll say, okay, here's the one-to-one. You're going to do it, say every week. Here's the agenda. The employee needs to run it.

[00:21:48] They need to submit their form 24 hours before. And then the meeting needs to go like this. And these are the rules. People will say, oh, I just, I, you know, I saw them the other day. You know, we ended up talking on the way to a meeting or whatever. And I say, you always turn up to the meeting. Just turn up to the meeting. It doesn't, if you happen to cover everything yesterday unexpectedly when you had some lunch together, no worries. But turn up to the meeting.

[00:22:15] And if there's nothing to talk about, you don't need to do anything. And it's three minutes. No problem. It's like turning up at the gym. It's like just turn up. And the discipline is in keeping your word or keeping the consistency. And then that is such a big, a big part of it. So the things that get moved all the time are one-to-ones training, internal training, you know, team catch-ups.

[00:22:44] And they were created for a purpose. Some, you know, people have put, decided to do them for a reason. But obviously the reason isn't compelling enough for them to keep them. And they don't actually believe. So it's like, firstly, if you don't believe and you don't, don't put them in the counter and don't do it because that's going to annoy stuff more than anything.

[00:23:06] But if you do know you should be doing it, but you are not, you're not compelled and you, it's because you don't really understand why it is you're doing it. So that's how I look at, you know, a mission of a company. I believe the mission is, you know, why we do things and that the employee should be really attached or engaged with the mission.

[00:23:28] So that if they're doing work that's boring or they're not engaged in, which we all have to do, it still relates, connects back to the mission. So we can understand, well, okay, while this piece of work seems really insignificant and boring and not important, I can see how ultimately it relates to our mission in the world. And therefore, yeah, this is actually much more engaging than I thought. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:55] And a common mistake, like I've made it myself around forgetting to share the why. And it's something that at Integral, we oftentimes will coach our product leaders to make sure that we clarify to every person on that product team around the vision and the mission. And from my experience, it's a fairly vulnerable thing to do.

[00:24:15] But then going back to what you said around, like, what's in it for me, I think the unlock was, hey, yeah, it's a vulnerable thing to share something that may or may not resonate with the folks around. But at least you're trying to take control over something that you're otherwise leaving up to chance, that the assumptions that the employees are making most of the time with their best moralities are not necessarily in alignment with where you're headed and where you want to go.

[00:24:48] Fostering an engaged product organization and aligning them with the principles around lean, human-centered design, and agile will more than likely lead to successful business outcomes for your organization. But getting started or getting unblocked can be hard. This podcast is brought to you by the player coaches over at Integral.

[00:25:08] They help ambitious companies like you build amazing product teams and ship products in artificial intelligence, cloud, web, and mobile. Listeners to the podcast can head on over to integral.io slash convergence and get a free product success lab.

[00:25:28] During this session, the integral team will facilitate a problem-solving exercise that gives you clarity and confidence to solve a product design or engineering problem. That's integral.io slash convergence. Now, back to the show. Someone who used to work at Integral left and was comparing it to another company that he didn't enjoy as much.

[00:25:55] And one of the things he said is, when you stated your vision, you didn't have all the answers in there. And in the parts that you didn't have your answers, I could see where my growth was. It was like, hey, he wants to get there. I think it's a good place to go. He doesn't know all the nuts and bolts about how he's going to go there. So he needs problem solvers to go learn how to do those things. And it's not a benefit that I thought of when we were crafting it.

[00:26:23] And this is pre-chat GPT when we had to get our first versions out and share it. And probably for the better because it helped us stay more authentic. But it was a hard thing to do. And in retrospect, the numbers time and time again show that it was much better than we did. And took control of the message versus leaving it up to room for assumption, which typically leads to downstream variance or risks. I do want to touch on something.

[00:26:53] You mentioned, what was it? All hands or town halls as one item. Another one was one-on-ones or one-to-ones that you're a big believer in. Are there another two or three things that are kind of in that foundational list that folks may not be doing or not doing consistently?

[00:27:11] So the first thing, so when I go into organizations and I do like an audit, for want of a better word, I want to know whether roles are clearly defined. And what that means is that at any given time, do I know what success looks like? How do I know I'm doing a good job today? Is it because I'll assume it because no one said otherwise?

[00:27:40] Or do I actually know that this is what success looks like? And in most cases, nearly every case of businesses I go into, they don't have their roles defined that way. They have a job description, a list of tasks, and that might be fine for a job ad. But as far as being able to say to someone, this is what success looks like in this role, that is so critical and impacts so many other parts of the business.

[00:28:10] So when we do- Can you, while you're on that topic, sorry to interrupt, can you kind of maybe give us an example of sort of a before and after of what like a job description might have? That's more of a static thing that's maybe more used for recruiting versus like a success criteria as part of a role definition. So as an employee, I can look at that and it gives me a good sense of like, was today a good day or not a good day in terms of am I, was I doing well today?

[00:28:38] So in terms of, I imagine it's fairly subtle in terms of the phrasing and then has a huge downstream implication. So I'm curious if you've got any examples that come to mind of how you might change something or be a self-check on having that success criteria outlined well. We break roles down into three, the three big rocks, the three, what are the three key rocks of the role with four to six clear KPIs underneath with clear measures.

[00:29:06] Now, if the first thing that we find the problem with the problem, so before we even get to knowing what success looks like, is often the role is not constructed in a way that is going to enable someone to be a high performer.

[00:29:24] So what I mean by that is if you envisage three parts of your role, you've got three key things, sales and reporting and account management, for example, or sales and leadership and whatever. Do those rocks actually work aligned with each other? Or are we asking for two different types of people in one role?

[00:29:52] So when people come to us to do recruitment, I will never just go, okay, what role do you want? Yeah, I'll go out to market. I always clearly define the role first within the organisational structure because in most cases, the role that they're going out to recruit is not right, whether it be the wrong role altogether or the actual role doesn't make sense.

[00:30:19] So let's use the example of, this is a very basic example of, I won't use DISC because some of your listeners might not know DISC, but let's just use the example of introverted and extroverted activities. If you've got a role that is 50% introverted activities and 50% extroverted activities, the likelihood of finding someone who is equally good in both of those spaces is low. And it's going to make it really hard.

[00:30:48] You may have found a unicorn one time, but that role doesn't really flow together. We need to take out that introverted and put it with other introverted tasks and bring extroverted in. So this is a way of sort of going, does this role enable someone to be successful? Why can I never get the right people for this role? Because they're often not the person.

[00:31:11] So the first thing before anything else is like, look at your organisational structure and look at the roles. And do these roles actually make sense? Before you do anything, then once you know that the role makes sense, then we need to clearly define. So one of the things in relation to having the rocks.

[00:31:39] So say, for example, okay, I'll give you an example. So my rocks might be strategy, business development and team development. Okay. So say they are my rocks. That's what my role, what I'm responsible for. And I'm in a meeting with a client, doing a client meeting, doing client work.

[00:32:07] That is not in my job description. So why am I doing that? I can, if I'm working in alignment with my role or my job description, I could say, well, I'm in that role because I'm training the person next to me. So I'm in my training and development rock. Or there's a huge opportunity with this client of upselling or another project. So I'm really here from a business development perspective.

[00:32:37] But if I'm here doing client work because they're a really important client and I don't want anyone, like I need to be there, or I don't have anyone that I really trust, or I don't have enough staff, then I'm getting some really good feedback as to what's going on in my team and my business. Why am I doing this?

[00:33:24] On your outcome profile or your job description. And on yours, it's 50% team management. And then it's 30% client management and 20% reporting. And we go through it and you say, oh, you know, I'm spending, I'm actually spending 50% on reporting. So, okay, well, why is that?

[00:33:49] Is that because this role has changed over time and we need to update this and it's actually 50% reporting? Or is it that the people in your team who are meant to be doing reporting are not performing and you're not dealing with it, you're just doing their job? Or is it that you don't really like people management and you really love reporting and you're sort of going towards that?

[00:34:12] So, when you're doing your reviews, when you have a clearly defined role with clear outcomes and the role makes sense and you align it to your reviews, what you're doing is you're checking in on has the business changed? Therefore, has the role changed? Have you got the right people around you? Are they doing what they need to be doing? And are you doing, are you in the right role?

[00:34:33] So, you've got all these constant assessments of reality, like business changes, what we want to do changes, the people around us might not be performing and we're doing their job for them. This is the stuff that we need to be having conversations about. So, when we talk about writing a job description, I'm talking about the flow on effect. And this is one thing with HR that really falls down is that it becomes very siloed.

[00:35:01] But everything should leverage off each other. So, having that clear role definition has to come from a clear organizational structure. Then you create a role that makes sense. Then you can go out and find the person that aligns to that. Then you can show them what success looks like. And then together, you're constantly assessing the changes that occur over time in the business, in the department, with the individual.

[00:35:28] And so, these basic things are so powerful when they are implemented properly. So, a simple job description. Most people would have a job description and it'd be, you know, in the bottom drawer and be pulled out when you have a vacancy. We call them outcome profiles.

[00:35:51] So, they should be live and being used and giving you information about the business and the people on the team. And so, this is sort of really my whole approach to everything in relation to this. Same to the one-to-one, same with your hands. Whatever it is you're doing, what is the real, what's the real, the way you can really use it?

[00:36:21] So, we talked about disk profiling or behavioral profiling. Most companies that I speak to, you know, have done a number of different profiles over the time. And, um, for those who are not familiar with behavioral analysis or disk profile, I think there's a number of them out there like Myers-Briggs, AcuMax is the one we use, disk, predictive index, so on and so on.

[00:36:47] I believe they're all kind of based off of similar initial study that our brains are all wired differently. And from my understanding, there's different spectrums that we are all different, whether it's introvert, extrovert. Do we like a lot of information? Do we prefer bullet points? Do we like what's best for the team or what's best for us? And we're all wired a certain way and there's no right or wrong to it.

[00:37:09] But, um, what makes it right or wrong is, in my opinion, looking back and not paying attention to the differences amongst us and then catering the conversations and then the processes or systems acknowledging that we're not all the same. And so, um, wanted to clarify that before we went a little bit deeper on disk. So, sorry to interrupt, but please go ahead. Yeah, that's great. Feel free to also correct my, my person's definition. That's great.

[00:37:36] Sometimes you do, when you're doing something all the time, you, you forget that it needs a little bit more explanation. But, uh, yeah, I mean, we, we all see the world through different lenses and, um, and our drivers are different. Like why we do things is different. And most conflict in relationships is as a result of not understanding that. So, you know, we get brought in for workplace conflict all the time.

[00:38:05] And never once in my whole career have I come into a workplace and there's conflict because someone just wants to ruin someone else's day or their life. Like that's not happening. It's because of deep misunderstandings of like not understanding each other and taking things in a way that, you know, because we just see things differently.

[00:38:31] So understanding this sort of stuff is really, really helpful in so many ways. But the, one of the things that I, and yes, you're right. They, they are all based on a very similar foundation and, um, uh, but you know, the information is presented in different ways and you can choose whichever ones that you, whichever work for you.

[00:38:53] But the issue that I see with these behavioral profiling tools is that I go into businesses and they've tried all of them. Oh yeah, we've done that one. Yeah, we've done that one. Great. How are you using it today? Oh, well, I don't know. We did, it was good at the time. We got a consultant in, we did a team session. It was fun. I'm a blah, blah, blah, but we don't use it. It needs to be part of the language. And this is, again, have these key things in place and leverage them. Like go deep.

[00:39:22] So choose your behavioral profiling tool and go deep. So there's, I, I use extended discs as a reason. I chose that 20 years ago that we would use that one. And I've stuck with it for a number of different reasons. And I can use it for so many things. It's a, it can be brought out. And we have a lot of people that just use them, just use tools like that for recruiting, even though you've got to be careful with that, but, or just some team dynamics.

[00:39:51] But there's so many things you can do, just like the outcome profile or job description. So there's key things that need, that you can implement. And then if you go deep, you can really leverage those things. And so in relation to the behavioral profiling, there, I think that a lot of our, this space

[00:40:15] that I'm in is people do things on the surface, like the reviews and everyone thinks that they can recruit and you bring a tool in and you, you know, like it's, there's a lot of wasted energy and time in people leadership that I think, um, if we, if we really got clear on a few things

[00:40:41] and just implemented our system for what suits our vision and, um, our style and the culture we need and the type of industry we have and the type of people that are attracted to our industry, all of those things in design, our workplaces that way, and our people experience that way. It's so much easier to be successful. Um, but we sort of fumble around, um, by not just taking a moment to think about like who,

[00:41:10] what, what's the reality of, of my business or team and me? I, so there's a few things I think, um, that I'm finding are good takeaways for myself. Um, on the broader side, it's around as leaders being authentic, understanding who we are and acting from that place, being consistent as a result of that.

[00:41:35] So folks around us know what to generally expect from us and that we're somewhat coming across as predictable. And if we're not, then we're addressing that. Um, and then, um, catering our communication styles, everything from make sure to clarify the, the why behind things, whether it's the business or this priority and so forth. Um, and then giving everyone success criteria around, hey, this is where I'm trying to get to.

[00:42:03] This is why you're part of the team and this is what it looks like for you. And then some of the tools that you talked about, one-to-ones. And then, um, once we have here the, um, the role definition, of course. And, and within role definition, um, I love that moving away from job descriptions, um, to engage folks into, and what did you call them? Outcome profiles, is it? We call them outcome profiles. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:32] And, and within there, I love that you're thinking about the, the behavioral wiring of the individual. And there's not always going to have alignment, but at least if you know what the misaligned parts are together, then I know which part of my jobs is spending it with clients and helping them brainstorm and ideate and make decisions. And which part is doing timesheets and expenses and things that are not quite as engaging for my brain. And, or, or maybe in service of the vision.

[00:43:02] And so, you know what the friction points are that I can bring additional energy and de-risk. And also understanding this is at like this whole self-awareness around knowing why we do a lot of like task list training. Um, and it's one of the things that everyone on my team, regardless of how experienced their own career have to go through and do specifically how we do it.

[00:43:25] And, um, it's really interesting because if you are, if you've got a task that keeps being moved over to the next page, you're procrastinating on it. And there's a couple of reasons why that could be. And one of them could simply be that it's just not aligned to your style and it's going to take more energy. And that's all it is. So it's like, yeah, I'm not doing that because I'm not a detailed person and I hate doing that. And I know that I'm going to need some energy. Okay.

[00:43:53] As opposed to, oh, didn't get to that. Didn't, didn't get to that. Yeah. Not getting to that. Um, let's under, by understanding ourselves and how, how we are relates to so many other things. Um, same as, um, the reason that I can't, don't get this task done is because I need it broken down. I need detail because I'm a certain style that is driven by accuracy and I don't have enough information to be accurate.

[00:44:20] So I can't focus, I can't deal with this. So when we have staff that are not getting stuff done or dropping the ball or these sorts of things that we talk about, how often is it that someone just doesn't care and it just isn't, is just like, ah, I don't care. I'm not going to do it. It's not, it's most cases, it's not that. And it's not that they have the ability to say, hey, I need you to break this down for me.

[00:44:47] And I need this, this, this, this is why I'm procrastinating on this. That's, that's very hard. So as leaders, for us to be able to understand the styles of our people and the way that they process their information and the, and the information that they need, um, enables us to be able to be aware of that because we can't expect people to go, oh, I know exactly why I haven't done that task that you wanted me to do two weeks ago.

[00:45:16] And I'm going to come to you and say, hey, you know, that task you asked me to do two weeks ago, I haven't done it. I just kept putting it off. Like that's not going to happen. So how do we as leaders put things in place to, um, help us be human so that we can get the job done, um, and, you know, do it well.

[00:45:37] And another thing you mentioned about the, the outcome profile is that unlike the job description that goes back into the drawer until you need to hire someone else. Um, this is a, um, a living, breathing document, if you will, or artifact. And it gets updated as things change, whether it's organizational priorities or something about the person themselves or the department, I imagine.

[00:46:05] And, uh, what if, if I imagine a majority of folks are in that bucket of, hey, we had a job description and then people kind of figure it out. And now we're, if we're moving towards kind of revisiting this, uh, every day seems too often. Every year to revisit seems too, maybe not often enough. What's a good place to start?

[00:46:29] When we look at it that way, we're thinking of it as a document that we are updating. So we found this out and now we're going to update the document. That's not what it is. This is giving us the answers. So having a, being able to be in a one-to-one or a review or whatever it may be and be able to go, hey, is that, is that actually how we need to measure this?

[00:46:59] Um, does that actually make sense? Or, um, so, you know, like a good example might be for sales, you want someone to get, um, 10 client prospect meetings a month, for example. Um, okay. So if the, if the outcome is 10 prospect meetings a month, how they get there shouldn't really matter.

[00:47:27] They get them through LinkedIn, they get them through networking, whatever, if that's the outcome that you're wanting. But if you're wanting them to make 10 LinkedIn connections or do 10 posts on social media, what you're trying to do is you're trying to expand the brand. So you could have, you need 10 prospect meetings. I don't care how you get them, but don't say you need 10 prospect meetings. So you've got to do this many posts on LinkedIn.

[00:47:56] They're not, they're not the same. They're, they have different purposes. So understanding like, what are we ultimately trying to achieve here? And so therefore then what needs to be done? Because too often when we do these outcome profile, um, process, like assessments with our clients, I will say, so why, why, why do you need to do that? Or why is it that you do that? Or what is it that you're wanting to achieve from that? And they don't know.

[00:48:26] And so it's like, okay, well, you're asking your person to do this many posts on social media. Why? Oh, cause I, they need to get revenue. Like, can, do you mind where they get revenue from? No. So why do they have to do posts on social media? Like, can they just get it from, get those, that revenue from wherever you want? Yes. Okay. But I also want them on, on social media. Why? Because I want people to see us, right? Different. It's a different outcome we're trying to achieve.

[00:48:53] And I think what gets conflated maybe between smaller businesses that are doing much newer things and having to differentiate way more than larger businesses that have more of a moat or distribution channel and stuff that they don't need to innovate quite as fast.

[00:49:39] Was this the right hire or not? Is oftentimes a question that we face. Or was this even the right decision to make this, this, this position? Compared to if we have 40 people on the sales floor and I'm hiring number 41, 30 out of those 40 folks probably have some best practices that, that get it done a certain way. 10 of them are going to do it a different way. And then depending on how those 10 do it, maybe that's how the, the 30 and the majority are going to do it next year, next quarter. And that's how we sort of allocate our innovation and our consistency.

[00:50:10] So for the folks who were kind of in the earlier days where there's more uncertainty and they don't know how to look back, what are stories or what's advice on, on how to decide whether should I, should I push through and, and stay on track here with this experiment or should I cut bait? This was, this was a mistake. So I had a client come and say, I need a COO. They were a CEO.

[00:50:37] Company was, I don't know, say 80 staff, 90 staff, 90 staff. I need a COO because she had 40 people reporting to her and obviously couldn't get anything done. And so she went, so I'd like to engage you to recruit a COO for me. And I was like, okay, but as part of our process, we don't just go take the order. I need to look at this and go, is this the right role?

[00:51:07] We did a whole organizational restructure. And what needed to happen was three departments needed to be designed. Three director roles needed to be designed and developed and recruited. Now, someone might go, oh gosh, that's a lot more money than what that initial COO was. But that would not have worked.

[00:51:28] And when we went through and did the proper org structure and what ultimately the CEO needed delivered, there was no way that one person was going to be able to do that job. I would have hired that person and they would have failed. And then I would have done a, considered to be a bad job. So we do the org structure and then over 18 months, we hired in the three director roles and changed the whole structure. And it was unbelievable.

[00:51:57] It was just, it was this beautiful example of one, a CEO that was willing to listen. Um, and we had to pitch to the board and explain why now we want all this extra money. Um, but we could, because we could show why, you know, that other role wasn't going to work.

[00:52:22] Um, they weren't doing it because you weren't doing it because another company down the street or your competitor restructured that way. You, the CEO knew, it sounds like rolled up your sleeves, got down to what you're trying to achieve and then built that back up into a more informed approach through your expertise, but their context, um, to what made sense. So it, it, you're more likely to create a bulletproof plan that you can easily present in front of a board or anyone else.

[00:52:51] And if there's any questions you can't answer, it's probably a good thing because it showcases holes in the plan. But the chances are you're able to go down to that fund foundational level and clarify any uncertainty that justifies and warrants this additional investment and probably waiting 18 months now versus like, Hey, I'm hoping a COO comes in six months and then all our problems are solved. Uh, I've unfortunately found out personally more than, more than once that, that it takes more than that.

[00:53:19] When I think about it, when people come to us to do the recruitment element, I mean, I don't know the exact numbers, but a lot of the time we end up recruiting a different role to what they thought that they needed. And that's what scares me about going out to say a recruitment agent and going here, I need this. And they go, no worries. And they go and find that person and the person's not successful. The reason that we do it differently is because we ultimately deal with the aftermath of, you know, what happens with people once they're in their roles.

[00:53:49] And so then we know that it's so critical to just take a breath and go, hang on, let's just make sure. Because so often, um, you know, fair enough, even if you were replacing someone, someone's been in a role for a long time, it's been great. And now they're moving on. It's still worth doing an assessment of the org structure and the business and where you're going and who you are now and what worked and what didn't before you just go, oh, we need to get a replacement for that person.

[00:54:15] Um, these are where, these are the mistakes that happen that end up causing us a lot of pain later on when we have the wrong people or whatever. Well, I very much appreciate you making the time to come speak to us. Um, one thing we'd like to find out for most of our folks, and in your case, I'm going to ask the team question is, is there a team out there fictional or real that you've been part of or got to observe or you just heard about that is like your favorite aspirational, inspirational team?

[00:54:46] Well, I, yes, I'm going to share the, um, team that I am on as part of a board for entrepreneurs organization. Um, I was the president last year and I managed to build a team around me, but this year I'm still on that board. And I was thinking about this.

[00:55:06] This, this is a really incredible team because everybody really cares about their part, like what they are ultimately responsible for and everybody else. So we get, we're like, we're a board, but we're really a committee cause we're all, we're doing all the work as well.

[00:55:27] Um, it is in, it's the most successful board that I've ever been on because how engaged everyone is in what their individual role is and how it can affect others. And that is the same in, in companies as well. I know when my personal, in my teams, in my business have worked and when they haven't, there's a, there's a care for your, your role, but there's a care for everyone else's.

[00:55:57] Um, and that I, that's a culture thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And so for folks who are wanting to follow more of your work or follow up and contact you directly, where can people find your stuff and get in touch with you? Yeah. Thank you. Well, probably the best place is to go onto LinkedIn, sell Watts. Um, but you can also go onto our website, what's next px.com.

[00:56:19] Um, and we, um, share a lot of, um, really easy to read blogs and newsletters specifically for leaders, um, on the real stuff. I'm all about, you know, no BS, like let's be real, um, no fancy fluffy words, like just talk about what's actually happening. And I will say that pretty much everything that we have developed and design and do for our clients has been as a result of what I have needed myself to run my businesses. So it's real life. It's not theory.

[00:56:49] It works. And I had the problem, um, and I had to find a solution. And so, um, yeah, I share a lot about that. So LinkedIn, sign up for our newsletter, give me a call. Oh, I'd love to have, I love talking to, to leaders and hearing all their stories and having a chat. So I'd really greatly appreciate having this opportunity to talk with you. Cool. We'll make sure to have links to all of that in the show notes as well. Thanks a lot, Sal.

[00:57:21] Hey folks. Hope you enjoyed that episode with Sal. I met Sal when I was looking for someone to help conduct a 360 review for myself as a CEO of Integral. I was thinking of ways to be a better leader as well as design the organization for the future through succession planning. 360 degrees weren't new to us at Integral. We were already using it as a performance evaluation method where individuals, including myself, received feedback from a 360 degree view of inputs.

[00:57:49] Managers, peers, direct reports, and depending on the role, sometimes even customers. We did this to provide the integer, that's what we called ourselves at Integral, with a well-rounded perspective that helped with leadership development, performance coaching, career growth, and more. The reason why I like this tool is because I feel like it mitigates a lot of the risks that come from a more traditional top-down evaluation. Bias that may exist within managers.

[00:58:15] In our consulting world, our folks sometimes spend more time with their clients and peers than their managers, and a more rounded approach provided much richer feedback. When we initially did them, they were administered as a survey that we ran in our HR system. Folks would fill out about their colleagues, and the manager synthesized this and created growth plans for the integer. Today, you can ask ChatGPT to help you design a 360 review.

[00:58:41] I did it, and with a little bit of prompting, it provided a pretty good starting point that you can put into Google Forms or another survey tool. Something that I loved about Sal's approach is that in addition to using a relatively standard survey, she paired it with two things that I believe very strongly in. The first is a behavioral assessment tool like DISC, and the second is adding contextual interviews to the survey where she spoke to each person that filled out the survey.

[00:59:07] I like this because surveys, while they carry opinion and structure, can sometimes be hard to interpret. And Sal's approach of combining the survey with DISC and with speaking individually with each member of the team that provided input to my review gave us a much more comprehensive picture about my strengths, my weaknesses, my blind spots, and maybe what role I would best be served playing.

[00:59:33] More importantly, I think the additional tools also provided examples and context so I could better internalize the information and process it to act on it. The DISC analysis further helped me understand what my brain is wired for, what it's not going to enjoy so much, so I didn't have to rush to go fix everything that showed up. I could incorporate things like organizational design and who I needed to hire instead of just chasing all my weaknesses.

[00:59:58] I got to double down on my strengths and work only on the weaknesses that mattered to the role that I needed to play, not all of them. Thank you so much for listening to this episode with Sal Watts. If you're curious about rolling out 360 reviews for yourself as a leader or to your team, definitely reach out to Sal. And feel free to also ask follow-up questions to us via direct message on social or on our website, convergence.fm, and sending us a recording through the contact page. We will see you next week on our next episode.

[01:00:33] Thank you for joining me on the Convergence podcast today. Subscribe to the Convergence podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your content. If you're listening and found this helpful, please give us a five-star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, hit that like button and tell me what you think about what you heard today.